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[Fishy]

I feel sure that there will be plenty of people out there who would argue with me, but I am deeply worried about the new edition of Dungeons & Dragons.

First off, take a look at the cover to the new Players Handbook (Due this year). While I had a lot of complaints about the Monster art in 3rd Edition (What the hell did they think they were doing there? Surely making the pictures match the writen descriptions would have helped a bit?) I liked the overall look of the books. While I've yet to see inside one of the new edition, the covers are truly appaling.
I have been saying for some time that I believe WotC to be going the way of Games Workshop: aiming their products more and more at "new" gamers (ie teenage boys) at the expense of the existing market. Certainly I wouldn't buy D&D if I were looking for a new FRP today (I'd buy Mongoose's edition of RuneQuest, which I have actually bought anyway but that's a different story).

The rules in the new 4th Edition will probably be fine, just as the 3.5 rules are (even though i disagree with some of the changes they made and am still using 3e because it's easier than trying to use a hybrid of the two editions) but the look of the books certainly puts me off, as does the attitude displayed in WotC's current product lines. Take this book for example, why is this $20 when it should be simple website content or, at most, a free ebook? I would also like to know how much compatability there will be between the old and new editions, but until it's launched we don't seem to be getting much data there (if anyone has any hard info please feel free to post here). So far all that WotC seems to have done is give us a natty logo on new products to show they'll be compatible, implying that nothing else will be.


Anyway, I didn't come here to whinge all day and I will, of course, take a look through the new edition when it launches in June. Perhaps I'll be pleasantly surprised, right now I'm not optimistic though.
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[Lurkinggherkin]

If you want to know what's in store in 4th ed, here would be a good place to start:

http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/inquest/005672645.cfm

Regarding compatibility with previous versions - Bill Slavicsek, Wizards of the Coast director of RPG research and development, effectively states in this article that there won't be any. They are recommending that people scrap their campaigns and start over. Because people's campaigns are less important than the tools used to create them, in the view of WotC. Because it's the tools that generate their revenue stream.

All the supplements people have bought (a considerable number in my case) will be of no use to them should they choose to move to 4th edition.

All of this lends credence to your suspicion that they are really only interested in attracting shiny new players with 4th edition.

As far as the 'Wizards Presents' series of 'edition-neutral' products is concerned, like the 'Worlds and Monsters' book you cite, I believe they exist for one purpose only. 4th edition has been announced, which is the death-knell for the 3rd edition product range (the final release, I think, was 'Elder Evils' which gives you a bunch of end-of-the-world scenarios with which to wrap up your campaign - do you think they were trying to give people a hint there?).

Now, 4th edition rulebooks don't actually hit the streets until June this year. So in the meantime, they want to maintain a revenue stream. So they bring out a bunch of these edition-neutral (therefore largely content-free) supplements in the hope they can persuade a few fanboys to part with their cash between now and June.

[Lurkinggherkin]

First Paizo lose their license for Dungeon and Dragon, then Margaret Weis loses her license for Dragonlance:

See -

http://www.margaretweis.com/page.php?41

and -

http://www.margaretweis.com/page.php?24

"So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause" isn't technically the right metaphor, but captures the mood in the air quite nicely I think.

[Fishy]

So a resounding "You betcha!" on the unspoken "Will people be sticking to their current edition?" then. Thank heavens for third-party support, which I'm guessing will continue until WotC drop the OGL and possibly afterwards (with a lot more advice from lawyers).
I fail to be inspired to start playing a game in the knowledge that it'll be dropped in favour of an incompatible "new edition" in a few years, so I'm not that likely to buy the 4th Edition it seems.

On the happy front we have RuneQuest and Traveller both back on the shelves and all three-and-a-half editions of D&D selling as eBooks (till WotC decide they're losing sales to their own previous products). For people wanting Fantasy I would recommend either the aforementioned RuneQuest or ICE's much-maligned classic RoleMaster.
I also enjoyed the previous edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and, though I don't have the new one, the original was great for new players.

Can anyone suggest any other alternatives? Sticking with what you're playing now is always an option but when/if a new game must be started what system should people use and why?
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[Drutt]

Having just looked at the cover design for the new edition, my first impression is "it's a computer game". That's the look they are going for and from the assorted links it also looks like the mechanics are going to be streamlined for the hard of thinking.

I've spent enough on 3rd ed that I hadn't seriously thought about updating (please note, NOT upGRADING) to 4th but now I'm certain I'm not.

EDIT: Oh good god, I just had a look at the book Fish linked to. Correct me if I'm wrong but it IS the RPG equivalent of a DVD extra?

[Fishy]

I've found another good alternative to 4th Edition, probably. Fantasy Craft is the Fantasy edition of the popular Spycraft 2.0 game and has some real potential. I haven't played 2.0, but own an almost-complete set of the generic Spycraft 1st Edition (ie not Shadowforce Archer) products and found that game excellent. Anyone got an opinion on 2.0 and whether it will adapt well to Fantasy?

Between that and such existing products as Malhavoc's Arcana Evolved "alternative players handbook" it seem that Wizards may have to fight to keep D&D the premier Fantasy d20 game. And With games like Spycraft 2.0 and RPG Objects' Modern20 they already have competition on their hands where contemporary gaming is concerned.
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[Lurkinggherkin]

[cleombrotus]

I guess it was only a matter of time before 'built in obsolescence' became a feature of rpgs, especially the commercially viable ones.

The alternative is to become a roleplaying dinosaur like me, clinging onto games written in the eighties and surrounded by gradually decaying supplements. Still, it's my happy place...

[Drutt]

Nobody could accuse me of being rules obsessed but even I like to have some shade of realism in my games, otherwise you may as well go and watch a video.

This is turning into D&D for kiddies. What's next? Gamer the embryo? Gamer the gleam in the milkman's eye?

And the D&D movie WAS truly awful, but funny if you've been having a little drinkie...I am holding out for a RiffTrax. Allegedly the second one was much better and actually grounded in some real game setting but I haven't seen it. Anyone?

[Drutt]

Cleo, do you live in Fishy's cupboard?

[Fishy]

If he does I want rent!

Anyway there's no room, what with the 60-70 RPG systems in there.
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[Drutt]

Most of them older than you! Well, your sister, anyway.

I'm more selective. Or "cheap", depending on how you look at it. Besides, I am a member of the library of Fish, should I need access to ANY game from the last 25 years!

[Fishy]

OK, just to make matters worse on my impressions of D&D4e they have given us some peeks at it and announced thew new GSL (Game System License) that will replace the OGL.
The GSL will BAN Fantasy games, so that third-party d20 can't compete directly with D&D, not they'd want to from what I've seen. 4th Edition is less an RPG and more a rules expansion to D&D Minatures. :-/

There are already stirrings that would seem to indicate the long term survival of 3.5 after 4e is released, and no bad thing either (though I STILL prefer 3e to 3.5 in 3 out of 5 rules differences). As I understand it (and I'm no expert) the old OGL is valid because Wizards never gave themselves the right to cancel it. Once it was out there it had a life of it's own, which is presumably one of the things they'll want to "adjust" with the new GSL.
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[davey]

I actually quite liked it - it's not drenched in needlessly complicated rigmarole like the others, and will probably bring more folks into the game...which can never be a bad thing.

I wouldn't play it, myself - I'll be sticking with WFRP - but it's not a bad product by any means.

My argument with D&D has always been that the rules get in the way of the role-playing, which is why my lot have always had more fun and longer-lasting campaigns playing WFRP. If you're not flicking through a rulebook every five seconds, it's amazing how INTO the plot-weave players can get. We've been running weekly since April 2004, and the only time we actually fluctuated on the player attendance grid was when we switched over to D&D for a month - we quickly switched back!
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[Fishy]

I have to admit that the two most successful games I've ever run were probably WFRP. A classic system, that - just enough crunch to stop you feeling limited but very easy to get into. The setting was always a good one, too. Anything that gives you the chance to kill a Manticore with a single pistol shot or KO a minotaur with one punch (both feats from the same player) has to be good.
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